Introductions
[Transcriber's note: The beginning of moderator Cathy Kudlick's self-description was not recorded.]
CATHY: ...bifocal glasses. And I'm wearing my signature white cane earrings, and, that I wore every year when I was director of the Superfest Disability Film Festival. My black t-shirt says in French "Differences," the richness of, or "the richness of culture." And it's got embossed Braille on the back with laundry instructions, which I think is very cool.
GRANT and REID: [chuckle]
CATHY: As a historian with a significant vision impairment, I've devoted my career to flipping attitudes about Disability and Disabled people. Much of what Reid shows, films shows are Disabled and non-disabled people clinging to 19th-century ideas without realizing it, and these ideas persist down to the present day. Reid's film and tonight's discussion will hopefully leave you with some new things to think about. So, let me do some introductions here. First, Reid, and welcome to Portland, Reid.
REID: Good to be here.
CATHY: And I first met, or we first met each other ten years ago when we were both jurors for the Superfest Film Festival. He's an up-and-coming filmmaker who's very talented, as you can tell. And he's made films about Disability from an overtly political perspective. Reid's first two feature films-Life After, which is the one we just saw, and I Didn't See You There, which was from 2022-both premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, and respectively won a Special Jury Award and the Directing award. Life After, I would say, is probably his most mainstream and serious film, although there were some good touches of Reid humor in there.
The audience has already briefly met Jonathan and Grant of The Curiosity Paradox, but here's a little bit more about them. The Curiosity Paradox is a Portland-based creative studio of access artists who offer public programming that centers multiply-marginalized, Disabled audiences. They have worked with a wide array of clients, including the City of Portland, Portland Art Museum, Fertile Ground Festival, Collins Foundation, IDEO, and many more. Or I think it's IDEO, actually. [chuckles] The Curiosity Paradox are co-organizers of the twice-weekly national virtual workspace for Disabled communities called CripCreate. In the coming months, they will release a new series called Access Our Way a how-to guide on Disabled-led virtual and hybrid gatherings.
In recognition of the ways that mainstream culture discounts the power of Disabled communities, they want me to give a shout-out to their long-time collaborators on these projects: Claudia Alick of Calling Up Justice, Luticha Doucette of Catalyst Consulting Associates, and Catherine Hope St. John, who maybe, they all might be listening to the recording of this. So, hi!
In their words, they are a creative studio with a deep practice of access art, and they believe in making accessibility pleasurable, slow our pace, and lead by example.
Share audience responses
CATHY: And now let me turn to Grant and Jonathan. And we're wondering if you'd like to share with us some of the audience's responses from today's film. So, we've got a little moment here.
GRANT: Absolutely! All right. I am pulling these up here. We are gonna read this, a couple of selections from this very large word cloud of responses people had from the film. Let's see. So, "Please share feelings, sensation, thoughts, or images that came up for you during the film." We have some of the words in bigger letters are the ones that more people said. We have, "powerful, curious, conflicted." Jonathan, what are some you see here?
JONATHAN: I see, "grateful, sadness, ponderous, churning."
GRANT: "Government assistance and dignity, poignant, wish for a bigger audience." That's on there.
JONATHAN: Yeah.
GRANT: Yeah?
REID: [delighted chuckle]
GRANT: "Complicated, intense, excited for this Q&A, concern."
JONATHAN: "We need new language."
GRANT: "A lot to hold, fought for son to stay in home." Someone said "fabulous, heavy." All right. Thank you.
Audience responses to the film
CATHY: So, thank you. So, thanks for that, everybody. And Reid, so my first question for you is, what has surprised you about audience responses to the film?
REID: Yes. And I am Reid. I am a white man with curly hair and a beard and wearing a black-and-white blazer. I think that I had been making, or my team had been making, this film for five years, and we were taking a stance that wasn't known in the mainstream progressive political parlance. And so, I thought we were going to be operating in a place of defensiveness for people who heard about it for these Q&As. And for at least the people I've heard from, Disabled and non-disabled people are like, they get it. They don't- I mean, they have questions, but they, there is no desire to try to invalidate our arguments. That's been very gratifying and very surprising.
CATHY: Mm! Great. Thank you for that. Curiosity Paradox, whoever wants to speak here, what's your take on tonight's audience responses? And maybe if you could weave in what Reid has been talking about too, please.
GRANT: Sure. I mean, I think I'm surprised and also really glad to hear that you're not hearing a lot of defensiveness, because I feel like that's what in the film you especially highlighted from the politicians in Canada, just the amount of defensiveness that seemed to be coming up. And in looking at some of what I see in here, you know, it's that mix of people talking about hopefulness, people talking about, like, their complicated feelings and concerns, while also, there's still this sense of, like, gratitude for the content of this discussion. Jonathan, was there anything else in what you heard that you wanted to speak to?
JONATHAN: This is my access check-in, which is that I'm feeling a lot of things that I actually, I just don't have much capacity to say much. So, I'm gonna delegate that you'll do most of the talking at this point.
GRANT: Great. I will do more of the talking.
JONATHAN: Yeah. Great. Thank you.
GRANT: You got it. Absolutely. And so, I also feel like, there are.... I remember when I was a kid, a lot of when Oregon was first getting Death with Dignity, there were a lot of ways that I didn't really understand why Disabled activists were resistant to these laws. And I feel like this film does such a great job of explaining the viewpoint that a lot of Disabled activists have been calling for, for a really long time. Yeah.
REID: Yeah, and I think it's still.... We spent about two years in development. And documentary film takes a long time, but even for documentary film, that is very long. And it was like, some days my collaborator Colleen Cassingham and I would say, "This is so fucking complicated. Like, what are we doing? Like, are we going to be doing damage?"
GRANT: Mm.
REID: And then the next day, I'd say, "Well, actually, it's not complicated at all." [laughter]
GRANT: Right, right.
REID: Like, that, like, it is okay. We would do this cycle over and over and over again.
GRANT: Mm. Have you noticed differences in how Disabled audiences who you've talked to about the film respond than folks who might say they don't know anything about Disability community?
REID: I... maybe very subtly.
GRANT: Mm.
REID: I know that there are a lot of Disabled assisted suicide activists.
GRANT: Mm-hmm.
REID: And of course, those people are going to agree with the film. But I think kind of the everyday Disabled person recognizes the ableism that we see throughout the film, that maybe they haven't thought about assisted suicide in this way, but there were a lot of things that resonate with their experiences.
GRANT: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Cathy, I told you before this that I would be doing time checks for you.
CATHY: Okay.
GRANT: And it's 9:11. So, we have about 10, maybe 12 minutes from when we started, but, yeah.
CATHY: Okay. All right.
GRANT: That's all.
CATHY: That's good to know.
GRANT: Yeah.
CATHY: No, this is great. And I mean, the one little two-cent thing I'd put into this is I think it's really interesting that there's so much room for nuance, and I was struck by the audience comments about there being complexity here. And there's so few places now where we really get to confront complexity.
GRANT: Mm, mm.
CATHY: And especially when it comes to deep moral issues, we're just supposed to be quick and whatever. And I think this is great to be able to sit with that a minute.
GRANT: Reid, you said a moment ago, like, one day you'd be like, "It's so complicated! What are we doing?" And then the next day you'd be like, "It's not complicated at all!"
CATHY: [laughs]
GRANT: I'm curious if you were to, like, if you were to, like, distill that, what is it that you feel isn't complicated?
REID: I think it's pretty unequivocally clear that assisted suicide in any form poses a clear and present danger to Disabled people.
GRANT: Thank you. Yeah.
CATHY: That's well said. Yeah.
Reflection on one film clip
CATHY: So just, this isn't quite a good connection, but can we show the clip right now? We found a clip when we were talking about the film, those of us that were viewing it together before the presentation. There's a very short clip, very short, that might've gone by when you, in the film, and we wanna get Reid to reflect on that a little bit.
REID: Oh, God.
AUDIO DESCRIPTION: A woman in a wheelchair faces an open elevator door. Compassion and Choice members fill the car.
WOMAN: Can I fit in here?
AUDIO DESCRIPTION: They make room for the woman walking up.
CATHY: And so-
REID: It's so funny that you showed that because we've tried to slow that down. We've tried to see if we had different angles to that because it's really poignant. We think it's a poignant clip that, that the rhythm of the film is a little too slow for that to really resonate.
CATHY: Okay, but it's very interesting. It might be too slow for it to resonate, but I was really struck, especially with the audio description, that I think a lot of people notice things in that clip that they might not have otherwise.
REID: Yes.
CATHY: And so, what I wanna know is, how do you describe this moment in the film, and what does it mean to you? And maybe Reid, if you wanna say something, and then Grant, if you do, but either way, if one of you wants to jump in.
REID: I mean, in practical terms, in literal terms, it's ableism du jour.
[audience laughs]
REID: Like, yeah.
GRANT: Delicious.
REID: Yeah. [big laugh]
CATHY: Yeah.
GRANT: Not delicious.
CATHY: I gotta get a t-shirt that says that.
REID: Can't get, can't get enough. [laughs]
GRANT: Mmm!
JONATHAN: Not today's special.
[all laugh]
REID: But I think in metaphorical terms, it shows that, you know, these well-meaning activists who are promoting Death with Dignity have-I don't know any way, any another way to put it-have failed Disabled people and failed truly taking to their, taking into account their very loud, and I think, valid concerns about what assisted suicide means. I mean, one of the most devastating things I think about is most countries that start out allowing people with terminal illnesses to kill themselves eventually allow Disabled people to kill themselves.
CATHY: Yep.
GRANT: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
CATHY: Yep. Yep.
GRANT: Yeah.
CATHY: Grant?
GRANT: So we also have a screencap from that moment, particularly when the activist from Not Dead Yet is looking directly at the camera as the person crossing her from Compassion and-
REID: Choices.
GRANT: Choices.
REID: [laughs] Yeah.
GRANT: -is walking onto the elevator because she has a choice to not take the stairs, I suppose.
REID: Yep.
GRANT: And this moment, I feel like as a Disabled audience member, for me really brings up, like, I feel this deep connection with that activist in the sense of, like, recognizing.... [sighs] Going back to something somebody said in the movie, I can't remember who at this moment. One of the activists in Canada said, there are a lot of people, like these legislators, who are so afraid of what's gonna happen to their bodies-
REID: Sarah Jama.
GRANT: Yeah.
REID: Yeah.
GRANT: -as they age that they're ruining the rest of our lives because of their fear.
REID: Yep.
GRANT: Because of their implementation of this. And I feel like there's so much solidarity in Disability community that it, that so many of these narratives about Death with Dignity completely fail to recognize that it's the relationships that Disabled people can build with one another through our experience of Disability that, at least for me, has made so much opportunity for joy in this otherwise very hostile world towards people like us.
REID: Mm-hmm.
GRANT: And I think I've found that as a queer person as well, to some degree too. But I mean, for me, this moment isn't just about witnessing the ableism. It's also about recognizing how this particular activist is looking to you and looking to the filmmakers of this to see what she's seeing.
CATHY: Interesting.
GRANT: And I find that really poignant.
REID: Yeah.
CATHY: So, this is a perfect segue to our last question.
GRANT: Wait, we have time. I wanna hear-
CATHY: Do we? Okay. Fair.
GRANT: Do you have anything else to add on this, Cathy, as well, what this moment means for you?
CATHY: Ah. You know, I'm really struck by the fact that [pause and sigh] the people in there are more scared than the people outside. And in a weird way, the people in the elevator are the ones who are trapped.
GRANT: Hmm.
REID: Wow.
CATHY: And, you know, I think there's a lot going on. I mean, you could spend a whole hour just talking about this one shot and a lot of shots in the film, I think.
GRANT: Mm-hmm.
CATHY: But this one in particular.
GRANT: Yeah.
CATHY: But I really do. I sense these people, they're kind of almost retreating, and they're recoiling, and they're afraid.
GRANT: Mm.
CATHY: And the power here, they think they have the power, but they, or they're acting, they're trying to act like they have the power, but they don't.
GRANT: Hmm.
CATHY: So, I don't know. That's kind of my....
JONATHAN: Jonathan here. I'd actually like to say something.
CATHY: Please.
JONATHAN: I, what I love about this is, this is sort of this hidden part of the film that actually, in a way, is a microcosm of what you've made. You speak about the film has this slowness that's actually super important. I think that those that haven't really considered their Disability or their disabling circumstances are in such a hurry to run away from what they're scared of.
REID: Yeah, yep.
GRANT: Mm.
JONATHAN: And so, even though this is hidden, you don't see it until you really watch the film, this is, in a way, really a microcosm of what you're trying to do, which is slow us down.
CATHY and GRANT: Mm.
GRANT: Hmm.
JONATHAN: So, this is maybe the only statement I'll have. I'm done.
[panelists chuckle]
CATHY: Thanks for that. Thanks, everybody.
What would you say if you could meet Elizabeth Bouvia?
CATHY: So, Reid-and if there's time, maybe the rest of us could weigh in-if you, and the audience can think about this, too, if you had met Elizabeth Bouvia now, what conversation would you imagine having with her? What would be the first, you can start with maybe the first thing you might wanna say.
REID: I would honestly just want to have a conversation with her without the cameras.
CATHY: Right.
REID: Just, I, I, I just wanna be in, I wanted to be in her presence, and I wanted to listen if she had something to say. And also, you know, take a cup of coffee if she offered me a coffee. Like, whatever she had to offer, I wanted to tell her that I wanted to offer whatever I had.
CATHY: Mm. That's great.
REID: And I'm not sure if I can go any more specific than that.
CATHY: That's, that's great. That's good enough. That's yeah.
GRANT: Mm, mm.
CATHY: Grant, do you wanna say anything?
GRANT: Yeah. I have been thinking about this question since we wrote it, and I still don't feel like I have an easy answer. I love your answer, Reid, so I'm gonna respond to your answer first. Which is that, like, I feel like so often, I kept imagining really political conversations. And I feel like your answer of, "I just wanna hang out," to me, it speaks to the ways that, like, living as a Disabled person is about living.
REID: Mm.
GRANT: It's not just about having basic needs met-
REID: Yeah.
GRANT: -that are like food, water, shelter.
REID: Yeah.
GRANT: Which is so often what people, I think people who haven't given these matters a lot of thought think of, which is that needs are food, water, shelter. When in fact, like, access to an education, access to healthcare, access to community, and other people, these are the sort of things that are worth working for. And, but that's in political terms. It's different to just say, "I wanna hang out with this person," because that is its own political statement as Disabled people.
REID: Yeah.
GRANT: I also feel like at the end of the movie, when you add her day of death, date of death into Wikipedia, that also feels like a moment of, like, claiming Disabled ancestry that feels super important. That as Disabled communities, there are ways that our families want to remember us and recognize us. And I've seen so many times, especially among queer people, where families are brought in as like the final deciders on how a funeral happens, what's said at the funeral. And that there are certain aspects of us that only our community get to know about and get to see and that getting to honor one another and remember one another as people who've lived in these ways and people who have resisted these very difficult cultural forces, like, we belong with one another. We belong to one another as well. And so, maybe that's what I would say to her as well, is that, like, our communities are worth living for. But I also know that it's...that when friends are struggling with systemic shortages in our healthcare, I don't wanna be someone who's trying to talk them out of how awful that is, because it is awful.
REID: Mm.
GRANT: So, those are some of my thoughts. Yeah.
CATHY: I'd like to draw everybody's attention to the fact that Stacy Park Milbern, a Disability ancestor. And when you were talking, when you were both talking made me think of this.
GRANT: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
CATHY: She passed away, or she died, and some would say she was murdered by the medical establishment. But she, they just, the US Mint just issued a United States quarter with her image on it.
GRANT: What?!
REID: Yeah.
CATHY: And so, be on the lookout. I mean, you can order it from The Mint at Stacy Park Milbern. There were, like, 20 quarters that were commemorated over the past five years, I guess it was, and this is kind of the tail end of those. They had a big ceremony at the Smithsonian last, like, two days ago, I guess it was, which I think is probably preserved online until it gets taken down. But [chuckles] it's there, and, but a Disabled person, and she's in her chair on the quarter! It's not like one of these where, you know, like Franklin Delano Roosevelt without his wheelchair. She's right there in a wheelchair. And she's an amazing person to know. And my comment to Elizabeth Bouvia would be like, whoa, look into these cool ancestors.
REID: [delighted chuckle]
CATHY: And, these are, you know, great. Well, I think time, royal timekeeper, are we?
GRANT: Yeah. You hit it, like, just on the nose.
Wrap-up
CATHY: Okay. Good. Great. So, I wanna thank everybody for coming. Thank you to Reid; The Disability Paradox; our interpreters, Jessy Severe and Thalia Plumridge; PAM CUT-which is on my, my, notes and I, it sounds like somebody's name, but it's actually P A M C U T-and the Tomorrow Theater, for making this evening possible. And thank you, audience, for coming. Thank you so much. And seek out Disability stuff everywhere. There's a lot of really interesting, cool things that are in the world online, offline. And there's lots to be curious about. So, thank you.
GRANT: Oh!
CATHY: Oh, yes.
GRANT: And I wanna just do a plug for any Disabled people in the audience who wanna know about CripCreate, please feel free to reach out to us or look it up. It's a really great space to just plug into community if you want to. Thank you.
CATHY: Oh, yeah. Good, good. Anyway, thank you very much. And....
REID: Thank you.
[soft, gentle applause]
